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Fact-checking a vice-presidential discuss between Kaine and Pence

Fact-checking a vice-presidential discuss between Kaine and Pence

Democratic vice-presidential nominee Sen. Tim Kaine of Virginia and his challenger, Republican and Indiana Gov. Mike Pence debated Oct. 4 during Longwood University in Farmville, Va. Here is a roundup of 25 suspicious or engaging claims that were made. As is a practice, we do not endowment Pinocchios when we do a roundup of contribution in debates.

“She worked a understanding with a Russians to revoke their chemical weapons stockpile”
—Tim Kaine

Kaine positively meant to contend chief weapons nonetheless it came out as chemical weapons. (Later in a debate, he pronounced “(Clinton) went toe-to-toe with Russia as secretary of state to do a New START Agreement to revoke Russia’s chief stockpile.”)

Even so, Kaine overstates a impact of a 2011 New START (Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty agreement, that Clinton helped negotiate as secretary of state.

New START placed tighter boundary on deployed vital weapons nonetheless Russia was indeed already assembly a treaty’s limits, for a many part, when a treaty’s doing began. Indeed, Russia has augmenting deployed chief weapons from 1,537 in Feb 2011 to 1,796 in Sep of this year. Also, a covenant does not shorten possibly nation from stockpiling weapons, nor does it need them to destroy any existent weapons.

Russia’s sum chief warhead arsenal has been on a solid decrease from 40,000 given 1986. The total has hovered around 4,500 given 2012, during Obama’s presidency.

“She worked a tough trade with nations around a universe to discharge a Iranian chief weapons module nonetheless banishment a shot.”


Kaine leans proceed over on his skis here. The Iranian chief agreement was indeed negotiated by Clinton’s successor, John Kerry, nonetheless Clinton helped tee adult a negotiations by augmenting sanctions on a Islamic Republic. The deal, that has been neatly criticized by Republicans, did boost a volume of time that Iran would need to build a chief arms by shortening a centrifuges for uranium improvement and a save of enriched uranium. But a understanding expires in 15 years and Iran’s chief infrastructure stays in place.

While Iran has insisted it has no seductiveness in building chief weapons, a understanding does not discharge a risk that it will obtain chief bombs.

Clinton and Kaine are “actually advocating $1 trillion in taxation increases.”

—Mike Pence

Indeed, Clinton’s mercantile devise would lift an estimated $1.46 trillion in taxation revenues over a subsequent decade, according to an analysis by economist Mark Zandi. But a taxation travel “falls roughly exclusively on a many rarely paid,” a research says.

This figure does not take into criticism a impact of her other proposals on a economy. For example, his news also pronounced that if Clinton were means to wholly exercise her mercantile plans, a economy would supplement an additional 3.2 million jobs during a initial 4 years of her presidency. Combined with expected pursuit origination underneath stream law, that adds adult to 10.4 million jobs. But a news also pronounced that Clinton would face poignant roadblocks to stealing her mercantile devise by Congress, ensuing in distant fewer pursuit gains.

“Donald Trump during his discuss has called Mexicans rapists and criminals. He’s called women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting. we don’t like observant that in front of my mom and my mother. He pounded an Indiana-born sovereign decider and pronounced he was utter to hear a sovereign lawsuit given his relatives were Mexican. He went after John McCain, a POW, and pronounced he wasn’t favourite given he’d been captured. He pronounced African-Americans are vital in hell. And he perpetrated this vast and hypocritical distortion that President Obama is not a U.S. citizen. … And we don’t consider that women should be punished, as Donald Trump pronounced they should, for origination a preference to have an abortion.”

Trump has, indeed, pronounced all of those things.

During his discuss announcement, Trump said: “When Mexico sends a people, they’re not promulgation their best. They’re not promulgation you. They’re not promulgation you. They’re promulgation people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, we assume, are good people.“ We awarded Trump’s explain joining bootleg immigrants from Mexico and crime Four Pinocchios. (During a debate, Pence rightly remarkable that Kaine was withdrawal out a prejudiced where Trump said: “And some, we assume, are good people.”)

In 2007, Trump called Rosie O’Donnell “a slob,” “a pig” and a “degenerate” in a singular speech. He has called Arianna Huffington “a dog” and pronounced New York Times columnist Gail Collins had “the face of a dog.”

Trump did say that a Indiana-born U.S. District Court Judge Gonzalo Curiel had an “inherent dispute of interest” given of his Mexican birthright and Trump’s devise to build a wall along a U.S.-Mexico border. Trump has said McCain was “not a fight hero,” and that McCain is “a fight favourite given he was captured. we like people that weren’t captured.”  Trump has, indeed, said: “We have a conditions where we have a center cities, African-Americans, Hispanics, are vital in hell, given it’s so dangerous.” And Trump was one of a many high-profile “birthers” who questioned possibly Obama was a U.S. citizen.

Earlier in a campaign, Trump pronounced women who accept bootleg abortions should be theme to “some arrange of punishment.” But he topsy-turvy that matter several hours later, after widespread critique from those on both sides of a termination rights issue. He amended his statement to contend that a doctors, not women, should be punished.

“Richard Nixon expelled taxation earnings when he was underneath audit.”


This is correct. A pivotal disproportion here is that Nixon did not recover his taxes while he was a presidential candidate; he did so in 1973, a year after he was re-elected.

Presidential possibilities have no authorised requirement to recover their returns, nonetheless there has prolonged been a tradition to do so for a consequence of transparency. Trump has cited a tentative Internal Revenue Service audit, even nonetheless a initial boss to recover his taxes, Nixon, did so in a center of an audit. Moreover, Trump has not expelled his taxation earnings from before 2009, that are no longer underneath audit, according to his attorney.

“The state of Indiana has offset bill … we’ve done record investments in preparation and infrastructure.”


Pence is scold on tender numbers per preparation spending, nonetheless is improper when a total are practiced for inflation.

In mercantile year 2017, state spending on aloft preparation and K-12 preparation is a largest in Indiana’s history. But practiced for inflation, a 2017 appropriations are not utterly as high as they were in 2010 and 2011, pronounced Lawrence DeBoer, Purdue University economist and an consultant on Indiana state budget. By 2017, Indiana state spending on preparation will be roughly behind to 2011 levels, DeBoer said.

On infrastructure, Pence began improving a state’s roads customarily after an puncture scold of a Interstate 65 overpass led to a month-long trade problem and caused a domestic liability, a Minneapolis Star Tribune reported. Political ads pounded Pence for saving income in a state’s pot during a responsibility of underfunding a state’s infrastructure.

Pence afterwards due a devise to urge roads “that relied on borrowing, sketch down state pot and accounting gimmicks to strech an advertised $1 billion plaque price,” a Star Tribune reported. “In a end, he got usually a fragment of that after Indiana’s Republican-controlled Legislature balked. And many of a income set aside for internal governments came from internal taxes hold in state pot that were already ostensible to be returned.”

Clinton and Kaine “have a devise for open borders.”


Pence exaggerates Clinton’s position on border confidence and immigration enforcement.

Clinton has pronounced she would enhance Obama’s executive actions on immigration and has advocated for extensive immigration reform, including a pathway to citizenship. But she also has upheld extended limit security. And her immigration proposal includes “humane, targeted and effective” coercion and focusing immigration resources on detaining and deporting those “who poise a hazard to open safety.”

“Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine wish to boost a Syrian interloper module by 550 percent.”


This is correct. Clinton has pronounced she supports President Obama’s preference to accept 10,000 Syrian refugees in mercantile year 2016 — and that she would support an boost adult to 65,000. That is a 550 percent boost from 10,000. But Clinton has not nonetheless disclosed her devise for a new mercantile year or beyond.

This map next shows where Syrian refugees have finished adult in a United States.


Kaine: “You’ve got to be tough on Russia. Let’s start by not praising Vladimir Putin as a good leader. Donald Trump and Mike Pence have pronounced he’s a good leader.”
Pence: “No, we haven’t.”

Kaine: “Governor Pence said, inarguably, Vladimir Putin is a improved personality than President Obama.”
Pence: That is positively inaccurate…. He (Trump) pronounced he’s been stronger on a universe stage.”

Maybe a GOP sheet did not precisely use a word “great” or “better” nonetheless Kaine flattering many hits a aim here.

Pence told CNN usually a few weeks ago: “I consider it’s inarguable that Vladimir Putin has been a stronger personality in his nation than Barack Obama has been.” Pence done these remarks just after Trump asserted that Putin has “been a personality distant some-more than a boss has been a leader.”

“The second member of a [Trump] devise is large taxation breaks for a unequivocally top, trillions of dollars of taxation breaks for people usually like Donald Trump. The problem with this, Elaine, is that’s accurately what we did 10 years ago and it put a economy into a deepest retrogression — the deepest retrogression given a 1930s.”

Kaine repeats a line that recently earned Hillary Clinton Three Pinocchios. But no convincing researcher would bring a Bush taxation cuts as personification a pivotal purpose in spurring a mercantile crash.

Kaine puts it even some-more starkly than Clinton. The Clinton discuss attempted to advise income inequality, exacerbated by taxation cuts, led to a recession of a center category and spurred additional borrowing and precedence — pivotal components of a pile-up along with messy regulation. But that’s a genuine stretch, given that a housing burble was a pivotal trigger. The causes of a Great Recession are formidable and disputable nonetheless there’s no discuss that it is wrong to put a Bush taxation cuts during a tip of a list.

“When Donald Trump spoke in Phoenix, he looked a assembly in a eye and pronounced … quote, ‘They will all be gone. They will all be gone.’”

This isn’t a proceed quote about deporting all undocumented immigrants, nonetheless Trump did contend that all “criminal bootleg immigrants” (likely referring to undocumented immigrants convicted of a crime) “are going to be gone. It will be over.”

Among other claims Trump done during a Aug. 31 Phoenix convene about stealing those here illegally:

“Anyone who has entered a United States illegally is theme to deportation.”

“Under my administration, anyone who illegally crosses a limit will be incarcerated until they are private out of a nation and behind to a nation from that they came.”

But Trump also laid out his deportation priorities during a speech. Among them: Targeting at slightest 5 million and as many as 6.5 million undocumented immigrants who would be theme to quick removal. That is about half of a 11 million undocumented people estimated to be vital in a United States.

“More than half of a private meetings when she [Clinton] was secretary of state were given to vital donors of a Clinton Foundation.”


Pence misconstrued an Associated Press news here, identical to a proceed Donald Trump did progressing in a campaign.

The AP analyzed State Department annals and looked privately during Clinton’s meetings on a phone or in chairman with 154 people who were not sovereign employees or unfamiliar supervision representatives. This narrowed down a denominator to a tiny subcategory of people Clinton met with as secretary of state, given a infancy of her tactful work would rivet member of unfamiliar governments. In addition, a AP report is formed on prejudiced annals expelled by a State Department so distant and does not simulate a full range of people with whom Clinton met as secretary of state.

The AP found that 85 of those 154 people, or “more than half,” had donated to a Clinton Foundation or “pledged commitments to a ubiquitous programs.” The 85 donors collectively contributed as many as $156 million, a AP reported. There were member from during slightest 16 unfamiliar governments, who donated as many as $170 million to a charity, nonetheless those member were not enclosed in a 154 number, a AP reported.

“15 million new jobs? 15 million new jobs?”


This is wrong. Counting from Jan 2009, there have been scarcely 11 million private-sector jobs combined in a United States, according to a Bureau of Labor Statistics. If we count all jobs, including supervision jobs, a figure is 10.5 million.

So how does Kaine come adult with 15 million? He’s counting from a low indicate for jobs in Obama’s presidency, Feb 2010. When we start a time from then, a total is 15 million private-sector jobs and 14.8 million altogether jobs.

The final time we checked, Feb 2010 was 6 1/2 years ago. So with this claim, Kaine is perplexing to clean off a year of Obama’s presidency.

Moreover, as a ubiquitous matter, unchanging readers know that we tend to bonus job-creation annals by a president, as so many of a record is due to mercantile army over a president’s control.

“Independent analysts contend a Clinton devise would grow a economy by 10.5 million jobs. The Trump devise would cost 3.5 million jobs.”


Mark Zandi, a reputable economist during Moody’s Analytics, did emanate a report observant that if Trump’s mercantile skeleton were wholly implemented, 3.5 million jobs would disappear, incomes would stagnate, debt would explode, and batch prices would plummet. (This compares to an expected boost of 6 million jobs underneath stream Obama administration policies.) In another report, Zandi also pronounced that if Clinton were means to wholly exercise her mercantile plans, a economy would supplement an additional 3.2 million jobs during a initial 4 years of her presidency. Combined with expected pursuit origination underneath stream law, that adds adult to 10.4 million jobs.

But both reports were rarely doubtful that possibly claimant would be means to get their skeleton by Congress — even a Republican-controlled one during a Trump presidency —because so many of Trump’s positions are such a depart from GOP principles. Even so, a news pronounced a U.S. economy would expected humour underneath a Trump presidency. (The news was released in Jun and Moody’s has not released an updated news that would simulate additional policies announced by Trump, including a revised taxation plan. But a news pronounced Trump’s trade policies would be generally damaging.)

“A anxiety to a Iranian deal, a Iranian understanding that Hillary Clinton initiated, $150 billion to a radical mullahs in Iran.”


Pence creates it sound like this is U.S. taxpayer income — and he uses a too-high estimate. Because of ubiquitous sanctions over a chief program, Iran had billions of dollars in resources that were solidified in unfamiliar banks around a globe. With sanctions lifted, in theory, those supports would be unlocked.

But a Treasury Department has estimated that once Iran fulfills other obligations, it would have about $55 billion left. (Much of a other income was thankful to illiquid projects in China.) For a part, a Central Bank of Iran pronounced a series was indeed $32 billion, not $55 billion.

“That’s since Donald Trump’s explain that he wants to — that NATO is archaic and that we need to get absolved of NATO is so dangerous.”


Trump has called a North Atlantic Treaty Organization archaic nonetheless he has not pronounced he wants to get absolved of it. Asked privately by The Washington Post in Mar if he wanted to lift out of NATO, he said, “I don’t wish to lift it out. NATO was set adult during a opposite time. NATO was set adult when we were a richer country. We’re not a abounding nation anymore. … we consider NATO as a judgment is good, nonetheless it is not as good as it was when it initial evolved.” Trump has argued that “distribution of costs” has to be changed, nonetheless as we have noted, Trump frequently overstates a weight on a United States.

“We will never, ever rivet in a unsure intrigue to privatize Social Security. Donald Trump wrote a book and he pronounced Social Security is a Ponzi intrigue and privatization would be good for all of us.”

Kaine is referring to Trump’s 2000 book, “The America We Deserve,” where he done such a comparison about Social Security and said he wanted to privatize a program: “The workers of America have been forced to deposit a sixth of a salary into a outrageous Ponzi scheme. The pyramids are done of paper-mache.”

Trump combined in a book: “Privatization would be good for all of us. As it stands today, 13.6 percent of women on Social Security live in poverty.”

But that book was published 16 years ago. On a discuss trail, Trump has said he wants to “keep Social Security total … I’m not going to cut it.” His specific skeleton for a program, however, are vague. His discuss has said “the pivotal to preserving Social Security and other programs that advantage AARP members is to have an economy that is strong and growing.”

For some-more on Social Security and allegations it is a Ponzi scheme, see The Fact Checker’s beam to vicious questions about a program.

“We have a smallest Navy given 1916”


This is a zombie explain that usually won’t go away. We have awarded it Three Pinocchios, and fact checkers regularly debunked this during a 2012 presidential election.

Indeed, a series of ships (272) as of Oct. 4 is a lowest count given 1916 (245 ships). But a lot has altered in 100 years, including a need and ability of ships. After all, it’s now a matter of complicated nuclear-powered swift carriers contra a gunboats and tiny warships of 100 years ago. The pull for ships underneath a Reagan epoch (to build a Navy adult to 600-ship levels) no longer exists, and ships from that epoch are now retiring.

This articulate indicate is a bad proceed to etch a country’s naval swift needs. Gunboats of 1915 and aircraft carriers of 2015 are not a same. And troops budget, swift needs and chronological resources are many opposite in 2015 than they were in 1916.

“We ought to muster a barb invulnerability defense to a Czech Republic and Poland that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama pulled behind on out of not wanting to provoke a Russians behind in 2009.”


Pence reprises a GOP articulate indicate from a 2012 campaign, nonetheless it’s not correct. Obama replaced a opposite system, nonetheless it was on a recommendation of then-Defense Secretary Robert Gates, a Republican. Gates, in fact, had endorsed a strange devise to President George W. Bush and afterwards motionless a new complement implemented by Obama was some-more effective, reduction dear and timelier than a Bush plan.

Gates, in his 2013 memoir, remarkable that while a Obama administration had stumbled in unwell to lay a tactful grounds for a shift, looking “like a garland of left-handed fools,” a Bush devise was already regulating into difficulty in both Prague and Warsaw and expected would have been deserted by parliaments in both countries. “The Polish and Czech governments were relieved,” he wrote.

“I unequivocally believed a new module was improved — some-more in settle with a domestic realities in Europe and some-more effective opposite a rising Iranian threat,” Gates added. “While there positively were some in a State Department and a White House who believed a third site in Europe was exclusive with a Russian ‘reset,’ we in Defense did not. Making a Russians happy wasn’t accurately on my to-do list.”

In fact, Gates says, a Russians fast resolved that a Obama devise was even worse from their perspective, as it eventually competence have capabilities that could be used opposite Russian intercontinental missiles.

“How mocking that U.S. critics of a new proceed had portrayed it as a large benefaction to a Russians,” Gates combined sardonically. “It would have been good to hear a censor in Washington — usually once in my career — say, Well we got that wrong.”

“Donald Trump pronounced salary are too high. And both Donald Trump and Mike Pence consider we ought to discharge a sovereign smallest wage. Mike Pence, when he was in Congress, voted opposite lifting a smallest salary above $5.15.”


Trump has walked behind a sold explain that Kaine cites, that “wages are too high.” Of course, Trump has flip-flopped on a smallest salary during slightest 5 times given Aug 2015 and has consistently contradicted his possess statements, origination it tough to lane accurately where he stands on a emanate during a given time. Trump’s position on this matter, as of Aug 2016, was that he supports “raising it to $10 during a sovereign level, nonetheless believes states should set a smallest salary as suitable for their state.”

During a Nov 2015 Republican primary debate, Trump was asked possibly he was “sympathetic to a protesters’ means given a $15 salary works out to about $31,000 a year.” His full answer, with a prejudiced Kaine is quoting in bold:

“I can’t be, Neil. And a reason we can’t be is that we are a nation that is being beaten on each front economically, militarily. There is zero that we do now to win. We don’t win anymore. Our taxes are too high. I’ve come adult with a taxation devise that many, many people like unequivocally much. It’s going to be a extensive plan. we consider it’ll make a nation and a economy unequivocally dynamic. But, taxes too high, wages too high, we’re not going to be means to contest opposite a world. we hatred to contend it, nonetheless we have to leave it a proceed it is. People have to go out, they have to work unequivocally tough and have to get into that tip stratum. But we can't do this if we are going to contest with a rest of a world. We usually can’t do it.”

Days later, Trump simplified he was referring to possibly he would boost a smallest wage. He would not lift it, given afterwards it would be “too high,” he said.

Kaine rightly records that Pence, as a congressman, voted in 2007 opposite lifting a smallest salary above $5.15.

“More and some-more immature people currently are embracing life.”


Pence done this explain in a context of termination and selecting possibly to be for or opposite termination rights. But polling does not support this. In fact, it shows immature adults’ views on termination rights are about a same as their elders — unlike issues like pot and happy marriage, where immature people are some-more liberal.

Among adults aged 18 to 29, 58 percent pronounced termination should be authorised in all or most cases, and 39 percent pronounced it should be bootleg in all or many cases, according to a 2014 Pew Research Center poll. That was identical to those aged 30 to 49 (59 percent upheld abortion, 38 percent opposed) and those aged 50 to 64 (56 percent supported, 37 percent opposed).

“But what we can’t know is with Hillary Clinton and now Senator Kaine during her side is to support a use like partial-birth abortion.”

“Partial-birth abortion” is customarily used to refer to later-term abortions regulating a specific fetus-extraction method.

Clinton has pronounced she supports a anathema on late-term abortions, including partial-birth abortions, as prolonged as a health and a life of a mom is protected. As senator, Clinton against a Partial-Birth Abortion Act of 2003, that did not embody a health exception.

Earlier this year, Clinton again pronounced she is “on record in preference of a late pregnancy law that would have exceptions for a life and health of a mother.”

Kaine: “More nations should get chief weapons. Try to urge that.”
Pence: “Don’t put difference in my mouth. Well, he never pronounced that, Senator.”
Kaine: “He positively pronounced it. Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Japan.”

Trump has, indeed, pronounced that countries like South Korea, Japan and Saudi Arabia should have chief weapons given chief proliferation is inevitable. Trump has pronounced that countries like Japan and South Korea would be “better off” if they were armed with chief weapons, in sequence to urge themselves from North Korea. And Trumps pronounced he considers chief weapons a final resort, nonetheless he would not “rule anything out” per their use.

For example, during a CNN city gymnasium in March, Trump was asked: “So if we said, Japan, yes, it’s fine, we get chief weapons, South Korea, we as well, and Saudi Arabia says we wish them, too?”

Trump answered: “Can we be honest with you? It’s going to happen, anyway. It’s going to occur anyway. It’s customarily a doubt of time. They’re going to start carrying them or we have to get absolved of them entirely. But we have so many countries already, China, Pakistan, we have so many countries, Russia, we have so many countries right now that have them.”

“She [Clinton] went toe-to-toe with Russia and lodged protests when they went into Georgia.”


This is an odd, fake comment. The Russia-Georgia fight took place in 2008, when Clinton was still a U.S. senator. Bush’s secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, lodged a protests. Whatever tactful vigour a Bush group had put on Russia over Georgia was deserted when President Obama was inaugurated and a administration motionless to pursue a luckless “reset.”

Pence: “Less than 10 cents on a dollar of a Clinton Foundation has left to free causes.”

Kaine: “Ninety percent.”

Kaine gets this right, as Pence steady a fake explain that is renouned on a right. The Clinton Foundation does not lot out grants, like a standard foundation, nonetheless instead leads a donations it raises directly for specified free activities. So simply customarily looking during a grants does not tell a whole story about a foundation’s activities.

The American Institute of Philanthropy’s “Charity Watch” gives a Clinton Foundation an “A” rating for a potency (the tip rating is A+). It says a substructure spends 88 percent of a losses on programs and 12 percent on overhead. It also says a Clinton Foundation spends usually $2 to lift $100.


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